Talk:Music and socionics

"Instrumental music is somewhat preferred, because the use of voice and lyrics tends to override the effect of the music itself."

I think this statement is unjustified, as lyrics themselves are often quite clearly related to certain elements. Thehotelambush 12:51, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

I definitely see your point, but I think the verbal information in music lyrics is processed separately from the aural information of the music itself. Of course, the elements emphasized by the two usually coincide. I will remove the phrase you mention, but I want to avoid having the page just discuss music lyrics, which can be analyzed apart from the music itself. (Admin 13:24, 5 July 2007 (CDT))

I agree. This is a good point. We want to see how typology describes music at a structural level. --Jonathan 23:32, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Won't Get Fooled Again (Pete Townsend)

It doesn't sound as musically disconnected as the text suggests (?). There's a constant chord progression, a repetition of the same motifs, and even a consistency in kinds of accompaniment figures used, although the accompaniment is clearly intended to sound a bit irregular.

What I hear, more than anything else, is a very strong sense of conviction (Fi??), and a tendency to try to express oneself in a way that is very much related to the current moment, without too much regard for hyper-consistency in the accompanimental patterns. Perhaps this tendency to express using what's available "now" and "at the moment" is what makes it Ne? --Jonathan 11:15, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Bad Horsie (Steve Vai)

How do you explain a pairing of Se and Fe as the dominant traits? Is that characteristic of EIE perhaps? Or more 6th-or 8th- function Fe? The "wailing" together with the strong/action character seem to go like hand-in-glove, so it would be odd that such a thing would have to be explained as an irregular pairing of functions (SeFe). Somehow, this reminds of the way Rocky "gets emotional" sometimes in the movie. Can you think of ways to detect what Model A function the Se and Fe would be in this example? --Jonathan 11:30, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Having heard all of Steve Vai's music, I can see that he rarely brings Se to the music himself, but rather welcomes its use by other band members, who seem very good at it. Here the Se is generated mostly by the bassist and drummer, whereas Vai is mostly contributing his usual Fe. I guess all I can say is that when the guitar is silent or plays an auxiliary (rhythm) role, the Se state moves to the forefront, and when the guitar is soloing, Fe takes first seat. I think this combination works because it's from the same quadra (Beta). --Admin 11:42, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Grieg: Morning from Peer Gynt

"avoids a feeling of mystery and anticipation, bringing instead gratification and satisfaction"

I love your points here, but they also show how words fail. The piece clearly has a "settled" and constantly gratifying quality, which I think is what you're getting at. Yet, mystery and anticipation are also part of it; clearly the listener has a sense of anticipation as the motif repeats and builds higher and higher to a climax. These aspects of composition are not missing but are subtly woven in to keep the listener's attention.

TMBG

I realize now that it's difficult to describe just musical qualities, without referring to video imagery/lyrics/whatever. Hopefully this breakdown still qualifies for the Music and socionics page. Although maybe we should consider expanding to literature, movies, and other media soon, to complement this project.

Anyways, if someone watches the video(s) and has any ideas, please share them here. Thehotelambush 03:02, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Good call! I just listened to it now. I would say the music has a mostly Ti-dominant feel, but I can see the clear quadra emphasis. Reminds me of "Talking Heads" (flat vocal style and nonsensical, but logically possible phrases like "He knew what not to do is what he did do"). The vocals here are very telling: you don't here this sort of "drone" often among singers. There's no direct attempt here to influence emotions and stir up passion. The music is upbeat and cheery in a Si way ("let's just enjoy ourselves"), but I wouldn't call it passionate in the dominant Fe sense. The singer even looks like a LII. --Admin 07:09, 19 July 2007 (BST)

• Here's another song with an even stronger LII feel: Older - more robotic movements and a "fugue" in the beginning
• And one that is "funny" from an LII's standpoint: Bastard wants to hit me --Admin 07:57, 19 July 2007 (BST)

I'm pretty sure that he (John Linnell) is INTj, and the other guy (John Flansburgh) ENTp. Interview here. Good job on the additions, btw. We should find examples for all the other quadras too. Thehotelambush 01:36, 20 July 2007 (BST)

Mahler's 5

Today, I'm hearing that movement as possibly Fi-related, although I said NiFe. (Then again, this may be a case where Ni+Fe could sound very much like Fi.) What do others think? --Jonathan 19:23, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Beethoven's 7

Though I like the general idea, this section is a bit confusing. A few questions: Se but not leading Se - why?; how is "long-term satisfaction" expressed in music?; is this supposed to show the values of the composer or the conductor, or both? Maybe it would be better to explain the comparison beforehand, instead of jumping right into the analysis. Thehotelambush 15:47, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, I realize the form of what I put wasn't perfect, but I figured it was better to put the content out there, with the possibility of tweaking it later (e.g., I didn't add the symbols for Te, Se, etc., as it would take too long). The theory section (under Music) doesn't go much into how one would detect acc- vs. crea- and other functions, so I'm just going by the way it sounds to me. Basically, this music doesn't sound to me like other examples of leading Se, nor does it remind me of leading Se people. I don't think acc-Se music would sound as ordered, for one thing. However, I'm open to other views. Do you hear leading Se? Or you're just wondering about my methodology for ruling it out? Anyhow, the intention is to explain the values highlighted in the piece of music, which would be mainly reflective of the composer, although it may differ from the composer's type overall, as Rick has pointed out elsewhere. As to the conductor, my point was that the conductor can influence the perception of the music. I'm not primarily interested in the type values of the conductor, however; that's a secondary issue. --Jonathan 10:42, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

By the way, also: Long-term satisfaction is expressed in music by not delving too much into any moment, and not letting the wallowing in the moment get in the way of a clear long-term form or story. (Unfortunately because the recording is cut, it sort of ruins things.) The opposite is music that has beautiful melodies but not much emphasis on long-term form. Another good example is Saint-Saens's 3rd Symphony (the Organ Symphony). That piece is forshadowing something big and exciting throughout, but it never really happens until the last movement. Most 19th century music tries to strike a balance in between these too values, seeking to "enjoy" the moment as much as possible, but also trying to forshadow things, tell a story, build to climaxes, and so forth. Beta and Gamma music will tend to do more storytelling and give more emphasis to external form. Delta and Alpha music are more likely to think that the "contents"...the melodies, great ideas, counterpoint, interesting pitch-related theories, and so forth, are more important than the external form. --Jonathan 11:14, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

PS...and anyone else: I'd be glad to hear arguments for and against this selection as showing Se in a leading position. (As you know, I'm very suggestible, so as soon as someone says it's primarily SeFi, I hear that as a possibility. :-) --Jonathan 10:55, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

One possibly unusual possibility, given the fact that a number of people thought Beethoven is EII, is to consider a highly-emphasized Se despite being PoLR. It seems like an odd possibility to consider, but it's one possibility. --Jonathan 18:09, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

...By the way, the case for that is that people who have strong Se tend not to view it as a "problem"; so Se that seems to say "Life is hard, life is a struggle, I'm with you" may not be from an Se quadra at all. --Jonathan 14:48, 24 July 2007 (BST)

Liszt/Beethoven comparison

By the way...for those who see B7-1 as mainly SeFi: I included the Liszt 1st piano concerto as a contrast for what SeFi might look like in classical music. Clearly, the Beethoven example is more "forceful"; it's possible that what I see in the Liszt as Se isn't Se at all....or perhaps these are different kinds of ways that SeFi may be expressed...or that Beethoven emphasizes Se and Fi, but not in the way that an SEE type would. --Jonathan 17:15, 12 July 2007 (CDT)