Talk:Music

Some commentary/discussion...I would appreciate your comments on the analysis of each function (I realize these are long comments, but I've broken them up into sections :) In my comments, I draw in some places on some notes I took on this same subject, where I defined each information aspect in musical terms and also delved into the acc- and crea- forms. One thing I'll say upfront: Although I do believe people can shift functions around a bit through the course of a piece, I don't believe that every moment that's relaxed in music becomes Si, or that every moment that's dreamy is Ni, etc....but you'll see what I mean. --Jonathan 23:05, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

I don't want to say too much in this subject because I am an ignoramus, but what about Wagner as conveying both Ni and Se? Expat 03:05, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Here's what I think. Music reflects the psyche in that too much of one state of mind becomes tiring and boring. This is why composers put transitions, diversions, tangents, etc. in their music -- so that the listener doesn't tire. During these transitions, just as the composer's mind is taking a rest from the main theme, the listener is getting a break, and the focus is shifting temporarily to another IM element or elements.

In rock music, for example, there is a tendency for many Beta and Gamma dominated bands to alternate between driven, hard-core rock and slow ballads. Take Metallica (Beta?) or The Scorpions (Gamma?), for instance. Somehow these styles complement each other.

Within a hard, driven song, there are also usually periods of rest, expectation, apprehension, calm, etc. Slow ballads often have very driven and powerful choruses or transitions. If taken out of the context of the whole song, these sections would produce a different state of mind than the song as a whole and hence can be said to convey different information aspects. In much of classical music, these principles of alternating states developed into full-fledged musical structures. In modern rock the musical forms aren't codified to that degree, other than the verse-chorus-solo pattern. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

Expat, I think you've made an excellent point. I've seen Wagner in precisely that way...conveying both Ni and Se. I don't think it has to do with alternation between different musical textures (slow, fast, transitions); I think the awareness of Ni and Se in Wagner's music is simultaneous. (Actually, before I knew of Socionics, I thought he was acc-Ni with a very strong awareness of Se, but his behavior in real life does seem to fit SLE better.) I believe that certain composers foster an ongoing awareness of their super-id side that allows them have a more complete sense of the dimensions of the musical space.

I agree, and I think artists in general tend to 'reach into' their vital functions more than the average person (hence their greater emotional instability or sensitiveness). Regarding a "simultaneous awareness of Ni and Se in Wagner's music," I still think this is conveyed through very specific means: on the one hand, for instance, a flowing, 'echoey' string background that creates a sense of distance and timelessness, and on top of that a robust, heavy sounding central part (by the way, we should look at "Pictures at an Exhibition"). --Admin 14:59, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Overall, I must say I'm skeptical of the approach of mapping information aspects to different musical moods or textures (in the sense of hard-driving, relaxing, fast, slow, etc.), although, Rick, I do agree that by focusing on examples based on some simple mappings you have been able to produce some really good, convincing musical examples. It's just that it's not that the music is hard-driving, relaxing, or etc., that makes it display type characteristics; it's something else...so I still think that the moods may be quite a bit varied even when displaying the same information aspect. --Jonathan 09:30, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Thanks. I think it's worth mentioning that King Ludwig II of Bavaria, who was Wagner's great patron, was a very obvious IEI, and he felt that Wagner's music had to be promoted, so it very obviously ressonated with Ludwig at a deep level. I have to say that I know zilch about music technically, but somehow I associate Wagner's music with Ni and Se, just like I associate Haendel's with Fe.Expat 09:37, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Interesting...I would like to see a case for Fe as a primary information aspect in Handel. Clearly, his music is expressive of a certain grandeur, and sometimes a certain exaltation quality. But judging from Rick's criteria on this page, it seems more Te to me; I could imagine myself doing something productive to the tune of his stately, march-like rhythms (I tend to see Handel as LSE). But I would like to hear your perspective on this. --Jonathan 19:19, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

I always thought that the Water Music, for instance, was Fe because of the good mood it puts me on, but perhaps it's me reacting to Te then. Expat 05:33, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Fi : feelings of endearment, sentimentality, closeness

I have always wondered what Socionists thought Fi expression in music would be. If it is this, that is the best case for Rachmaninoff being Delta, because "feelings of endearment, sentimentality, closeness" pretty much defines the nature of Rachmaninoff's music.

I can easily see your case. However, I think it's more productive in this section -- rather than focusing on typing artists -- to study specific works. I know Rachmaninoff's piano music very well, and we can pick out a prelude to examine, for instance. Most of them seem to focus on a certain state of mind (I can think of at least one that might focus on Fi). (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

I understand; the idea that a composer's music is consistently from a certain type perspective is just a hypothesis of mine. Better to look at specifc examples. I don't have my book of preludes with me here, unfortunately. What about the slow movement of the 2nd piano concerto...or of the the 2nd symphony? Would those convey Fi to you? Or is that conveying how very much a Ti person likes Fe? And if so, how does one tell the difference? (If we want to look at something note by note, I have the Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini with me. There's a lot in there that suggests Ne to me. Would the 18th variation (the famous slow theme in the middle of the piece) seem Fi to you? Or is it expressing a longing for Fe? --Jonathan 09:43, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

But I have some possible trouble with the word "sentimentality" in a way that's exclusive to Fi. Might not Fe expression also be considered sentimental? How would you describe the soaring melodies of Tchaikovsky, say the theme to Romeo and Juliet or something similar?

My first thought (on Romeo and Juliet) was Fi, but now I think mostly Ni because of the flowing, almost arhythmic forms, and the nostalgia and dreaminess induced. I can see your point -- the sentimentality expressed here is more about wistfulness, sadness, and nostalgia. A Fi state would be somewhat different. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

Another issue, and I know this gets outside the strict realm of music, but what of the expression of Abraham Lincoln's speeches? They seem more moralistic in tone, appealing to deep, essential values, feelings of moral duty, etc. Could that be another aspect or possible expression of Fi?

Definitely. But how would you express that as a psychic state? (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

Further, the only classical composer I know of that Russian Socionists have typed as having Fi in the ego block is Mozart. Filatova types him as IEE. Generally, his music seems to convey a sense of fine taste, appropriateness. Perhaps yet another expression of Fi? --Jonathan 23:05, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Yes, but I would probably formulate it not as "fine taste and appropriateness," but as somehow being attuned to others' feelings. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

Sergei Rachmaninoff

Movement 2 of Piano Concerto No. 2

The beginning of this movement appears to convey mostly Fi. When it starts getting more complex and tempestuous, I am less sure. --Admin 03:06, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Here also is a discussion of the concerto by pianist Stephen Hough that is very interesting. His interpretation suggests strong Fi in the piece (full of "gorgeous melodies", etc.). I agree that there is a sense of depth of feeling that seems to dominate the concerto. This seems to be more true of the 2nd piano concerto than the rest. --Admin 03:10, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Elgar piece

A piece that the British often use to convey deeper feelings is Elgar's Nimrod here (not very good rendition), they memorably played it during the ceremonies of the handover of Hong Kong to the Chinese, where it seemed to underline the gloomy expressions of Tony Blair, Prince Charles, Chris Patten and the all the other British authorities, as if to make the point, "we know we have nothing to smile or be proud about here". This could be a sign of Fe; yet this piece was also often played in the context of the 50 years of the end of WWII in 1995. So perhaps it means "just turn on the Fi now"? Expat 13:36, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

That sounds like some old Protestant church hymn! :) I would think Fi or possibly Ti rather than Fe. It is stately and rather official, but at the same time sentimental, as if a funeral march or hymn of honor. Maybe there is Se there as a secondary aspect as well?? --Admin 14:22, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Excellent selection. As Expat suggests, don't judge the piece too much from that recording; it's being played on a Midi instrument without emotion. With live strings, it is so wonderful....very lush and deep. I could see that as Fi by your criteria. It's part of the "Enigma Variations" and I'd recommend it highly. --Jonathan 19:27, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Ah, this is much, much better! Expat 02:52, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

From Wikipedia, on this piece: "Augustus J. Jaeger, Elgar's best friend. It is said that this variation, as well as an attempt to capture what Elgar saw as Jaeger's noble character" Expat 04:55, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Here's a comment from an ESI: "It's like he's inside your heart." I'm thinking this is really a good acc-Fi example. --Jonathan 11:24, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Here is Elgar directing "Pomp and Circumstance." I have the same question here about Fi vs. Ti. I'm curious what feelings and state the music produces in others here. I get a sense of pride, majesty, stateliness, officialness, honor, etc. Maybe this is a combination of + ?

I'd see not a bit of Fe there, myself. Unlike Nimrod, which is played in a variety of solemn occasions (whether you are supposed to feel proud or gloomy), "Pomp and Circumstance" can only be played in "positive" moments. Expat 03:23, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

What a rare find! I love those recordings of famous 19th century people. And here's where perceptions can differ wildly. Rather than Ti + Se, I hear mostly Fi, with the possible Ne values in terms of the melodic embellishment. I'm not sure that whether the mood is solemn, gloomy, or positive would influence whether it's Fe or Fi; I think the type-structure is bigger than the actural mood...although I could perhaps see the very "public" atmosphere of the Pomp and Circumstance march as indicative of Fe (Anyhow, Nimrod is from a larger piece that has all kinds of moods, including festive ones...but the Enigma Variations still has an overall psychological consistency.) One thing that this recording reminds me of is the possibility that the notion of Fi as feelings of sentimentality, feelings of closeness, etc., isn't quite right. In this recording, there's a firmness of emotion; it's hard to describe, but it's like this feeling of "deep resolve" that I get from being around acc-Fi people. I'm going to guess that Elgar is EII. (An alternative interpretation is IEI, or that is Ni-Fe in the march, if one hears the music as really coming from reflection of the past, the meaning of things, etc., with subdued Fe, which can sound like Fi.) --Jonathan 11:17, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

"Resolve" to me sounds too related. Maybe "deep feelings" (what you get from the Rachmaninoff concerto, for instance)? As I understood it Expat was saying there was "not a bit" of Fe there. I think Pomp and Circumstance is definitely not high in . It is a very rational, repetitive piece with no unexpected twists -- and that is part of the whole concept and mood of the composition. (by the way, I just remembered Pachabel's Canon, which is also repetitive in a similar way) --Admin 12:20, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Well by that I meant that there was Fe there. However, if nobody else sees it, I will concede the point -- what I meant is that "Pomp and Circumstance" conveys a very specific positive, uplififting mood, whereas I think that Nimrod invites you to inner reflection. Expat 14:06, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

I can see your point about Fe, but Rick's point, suggesting that it seems more Ij than Ip temperament would mean that the Fi is more "dominant."

As to "resolve," that might be my external reaction to Fi. It seems that when people exhibit strong Fi, it appears like resolve, but what really may be going (internally) on is that these deep feelings, moral convictions, and sense of attachments to people are so important to someone in an Fi state that a certain sense of "don't you see how important this is?" comes out, that appears like resolve. Anyhow, I suppose any Ij temperament may seem like "resolve" in a certain way. --Jonathan 23:12, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

With my tendency to keep seeing things different ways, sometimes I wonder why Nimrod might not be Ni (with Fe) after all. It can be hard sometimes to distinguish between deep feelings of sensitivity (Fi) and deep reflectiveness (Ni). --Jonathan 08:24, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

I listened to Nimrod again and I'm inclined to say Fi dominates there. I even hear some specific chordal techniques used there that help convey the feeling, but I can't describe them in writing. --Admin 10:19, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

Chordal techniques: Like, suspensions resolving downward? That's a typical technique to give music a sort of spiritual, angelic quality. I think you're right about Fi here. I've placed into the Music and socionics section an example of a very slow, calm piece that might represent Ni (with Fe). --Jonathan 09:45, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

Pachabel Canon

Could this piece share some similarities with the Elgar pieces discussed above? It has a similar repeating chord progression and a sort of stately, yet sentimental tone. --Admin 12:23, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

I don't get a similarity with Nimrod, but perhaps it's a personal thing.Expat 14:09, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Sorry, I was thinking of parallels to "Pomp and Circumstance" and didn't remember what Nimrod was like. --Admin 14:34, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Moonlight sonata

Here's Beethoven Moonlight sonata 1st mvt. A good example of Delta Fi + Si? Expat 04:05, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

The beginning sounds like it, but later there seems to be quite a bit of apprehension in it. I'm not sure (what do others think?). --Admin 04:23, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Right, then it's perhaps not really Fi + Si, but Fi + Ni or Fi with Si --> Ni. Expat 04:38, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

It's very common for classical pieces to start in a very settled state, and then to have a lot of harmonic instability in the middle, and then seem resolved at the end. If settled or resolved = Si and unresolved = Ni, then a whole lot of music starts Si, changes to Ni in the middle, and then goes back to Si again. There must be some way to see the "overall" perspective in a way that transcends this... --Jonathan 23:59, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Fe : passions; the desire to express one's feelings and inner experiences vocally and through expressive movements and dancing

I don't think whether the music is vocal music as opposed to instrumental, or whether it involves dancing or dance-like styles could really be related to Fe. Surely composers of all types have written both vocal and instrumental music as well as dance music.

Ah, that's not what I meant. I'm talking about the state induced in the listener. Fe dominated music makes the listener want to become dramatically expressive. Any aspect of music can make one want to dance, I guess, but "Fe dancing" would be more emotionally expressive, openly upbeat or dismal, and dramatic in nature. "Se dancing" by contrast would be more physically robust ("move that body!"). (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

How's this as an alternative (this is from my own personal notes on Fe in music): "Emotion-based form; social relevance to music; expressive and dramatic form. Fe may be seen as dissipative emotion, emotion geared towards grand gesture and public demonstration." --Jonathan 23:05, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Very good. Again, you're describing the music, whereas I was trying to describe the state of mind. They're two parts to a whole. My next section on the "Music" page would be "means used to induce different states of mind," and your descriptions would fit very well there. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

What about "Rule Britannia" as example? Expat 10:39, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

Ti : a clear sense of focus; overarching structure

This is most suprising of all, in my opinion. The problem in particular is that "overarching structure" may mean different things to different people; but in classical music it usually means that the music is good. :)

Sorry, that was added by thehotelambush. Originally I had "a sense of order, structuredness, and conceptual understanding," which better describes what I was trying to say about the listener's state of mind. I disagree with the word "overarching" here. I think the King Crimson and Bach selections are good examples of music that produces a Ti state of mind. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

I see you've changed it now; that's better. :-) --Jonathan 09:45, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

"Conceptual understanding" is a crappy way of putting it; it has little to do with music. Order and structuredness mean the same thing, and I wanted to emphasize that in Ti music the entire piece is according to a certain structure. As for what it says now: "small range of sound quality and expression; high focus on patterns of notes and melodic structure;" The first part is clearly anti-Fe, and if you believe (as I believe also) that complementary elements are used at the same time in music, then it should not be in the description of Ti. (See They Might Be Giants's music for an example of Fe complementing Ti in music.) As for the second part, couldn't you just boil it down to "structure"? It doesn't have to necessarily be "melodic" structure; it could be harmonic, verbal, tonal, etc. As for Jonathan's comments below, if "music's structure is dynamic", then static elements have no place in this page at all. I like the current explanation of Te in music. Te, intrinsically, has absolutely nothing to do with structure. Thehotelambush 22:00, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Well I agree with you that some of the wording may not have been perfect ("conceptual understanding" or whatever it said), but I agreed with Rick's taking out the "overarching" part because I do think that can have more sources than just Ti. As to the statement "Te, intrinsically, has absolutely nothing to do with structure." Well, that is one position. And there's another position that says it does. :) I'm hoping to gain a better understanding of which position is the most workable (or at least, the most compatible with classical Socionics) when we get to all discuss in person. Let me also say that I didn't mean that static elements have no place in music. Quite the contrary. What I meant was that the music, as it occurs through time, is by nature dynamic. The way I see it, it's like you're traveling down the road. Does a map have relevance to that? Of course it does. If you don't have a map, how are you going to get to your destination? But ultimately it's the car that makes the actual motion down the road. I may not have phrased everything in a 100% perfect way, but I think you can see what I'm talking about. (Anyhow, that's just an idea...see further below for more comments.)

As to Rick's description of Ti as being sort of anti-F...yeah, I noticed that too. The description there certainly doesn't fit well for those who believe Rachmaninoff is LII...nor does it even fit if one's model of TiNe music is Bach. I think that Rick's examples suggest that he's looking for music that seems to emphasize one information aspect largely at the expense of all others, which may serve as a starting point so we can see what the "pure" information aspects might be like in music (to the degree possible). That may have influenced his wording there. --Jonathan 23:47, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

The new phrasing of Ti sounds better, I agree.

Regarding "anti-F," it does seem to me that for an element to be fully emphasized, all others need to be removed for a period of time (usually brief). This is an extremely common musical technique. In rock and modern music, for instance, all instruments but one drop out, leaving the percussion, or the guitar playing a single riff, or just the voice. The same is done in classical music, for instance, when the music is reduced to a single trill for a moment, or a powerful melody with no harmony, or just the repetitive harmony, etc. So, to convey "pure structure," you would have to have some moments when all else takes a back seat. (Just a comment) --Admin 02:24, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

I think Bach's is a good example of INTj music (actually I realized this independently), but it is a rather extreme manifestation of Ti, and I'm more interested in seeing the elements in their natural environment, so to speak. Elements are rarely "pure" or fully emphasized (in individuals as well as music), so showing people only exaggerated examples (as of the always-fully-logical INTj) is going to distort their understanding.

Also, there is the question of whether T and F (e.g. Ti and Fe) are really mutually exclusive when it comes to music. I think music is above all tied to quadra values (see below), making the answer a definite no. It's more obvious when music emphasizes Se over Si, for example. It can't really be forceful and relaxing at the same time. Thehotelambush 02:39, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

In my experience, a focus on external structure may be related to Te or Fe, although Ti may be associated with a sense of having a "plan"...an inner sense of the map (statics) guiding the music. But music's structure is dynamic, which is why Te and Fe sound more like "overarching structure" to me, though Fe can be so subjective as to not seem structured to many listeners. Also, "overarching" may possibly be related to Ni (long-term approach). That said, if your definition is correct, then would you consider Beethoven's music as the preeminent example of Ti? (Ironically, though...see below).

This is what I wrote down in my notes for Ti in music: "Technique; coherence of the idea or melodic line; building blocks of music; rules of harmony; principles of melody and counterpoint." Quite a bit different viewpoint! But which is correct? That's the hard thing. --Jonathan 23:05, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

I agree with all but "technique," which could mean different things.

True, good point. --Jonathan 09:45, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

That is not different at all from what the page here says already. Thehotelambush 22:00, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Also, I should explain why I wrote "a clear sense of focus". This is the kind of thing that sets Ijs (and especially Ti dominants) apart from Eps, and it's reflected in music as well. I know it's not necessarily a commonly described aspect of Ti, but I feel it is especially applicable to music, as structure alone is not enough, in the eyes of Ti. The structure only exists because of the overarching plan, which I think Jonathan is also getting at. Any thoughts? I don't want it to end up just saying "structure". Ti is so much more interesting than that. Thehotelambush 22:15, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

The way it is now (a sense of orderliness and correctness of phenomena; a sense of understanding of how parts fit together to form a complete system) seems more coherent now. Here's where my hang-up is: Rick has highlighted Bach fugues as a possible example of Ti in music. This corresponds to an understanding I've had for a long time that Ti is related somehow to the inner workings, the internal structure, the material and how it all fits together. However, in some of the Classical period composers, such as Haydn, there is also a sense of orderliness, but it's of a different sort. It seems that Haydn, Beethoven, and some other composers, draw attention to what one might call the "external" structure...that is, the largest sections of a piece of music and how they fit together. In a Bach fugue, it's all organized from the inside working out, so to speak. Actually, the overall structure isn't always so easy to grasp; it's kind of the result of everything else. Whereas with Beethoven, Haydn, or Mendelssohn, the structure is more top-down. It's like you have these big sections, and then everything inside works to make them function properly. That's what I see as Te structure (or Fe structure, if it's built on subjective emotions). I realize though that many Socionics think that Ti involves structure and that no other information aspect does. That's a common Socionics view, and I do have trouble with it...but I'm open to different perspectives.

By the way, consider any Beethoven piece...say, the opening of the 7th symphony, for example. Or take the 5th...whatever. It clearly has a sense of order, a clear sense of how everything fits together to form a complete system; that's one of Beethoven's greatest attributes. Is that primarily Ti? And if so, how does Beethoven's form of it differ from Bach? Do you think maybe Bach is LII and Beethoven is LSI? Or is the "structure" apparent in Beethoven really Te (or Fe...or HA-Ti, or something else)? How can we tell? These are the tough questions... --Jonathan 00:08, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

I like the perspective on Ti being bottom-up; it makes a lot of sense.

And those indeed are tough questions; So far I think that mostly quadra values are represented in music, though I have seen counter-examples -- for instance, Superego SeFi is featured heavily in The Who's music. Take Behind Blue Eyes: "My dreams (Ne), they aren't as empty as my conscience (Fi) seems to be." It's a little oversimplified, but you get the picture. As for how different functions (not elements) are represented in the more purely musical aspects, I don't know. Thehotelambush 02:39, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Here are some musings on Te and Ti. When you take Bach's fugues, or the King Crimson piece I posted, you get a sense of logical "wanderings" or "ruminations" that don't necessarily serve any external purpose, but simply exist in and of themselves. This directs your attention inward -- at yourself, at the musical structure, at the note patterns. What Te should do theoretically is direct your attention outwards -- at the "tasks" being performed by the music, at your own external activities (hence the desire to "want to do something"). Clear-cut chord changes that occur at regular intervals and dominate melody and harmony might be something that sends an external "task-oriented" signal ("our job is to get from point A to point B"). This might be interpreted as some form of structure. Also, Te should produce a more energy-expending state than Ti, which might be conveyed through a stronger or faster beat, a lack of pauses in the tempo, or even higher volume of separate instruments. Te dominated music should not be particularly introspective or subtle (at least when Te is at the forefront). --Admin 02:51, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

I changed the Ti definition to the phrasing "a sense of understanding of how to build a complete system from individual parts"; I'm not sure if that's best, but I was trying to get at the "bottom up" aspect. I understand that the earlier version...understanding how parts fit together to form a complete system, or something...better captures the idea of intellectual understanding; however, it seems that the strictly Ti portion of that understanding is the bottom up part, and possibly other functions come into play when describing a complete intellectual process. --Jonathan 08:23, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Te : an active, but steady and purposeful state conducive to performing goal-oriented activities and creating order in one's surroundings

This is actually pretty good. A decent definition of what I've always thought of as the best music. :-) Also, a good description of Beethoven. One potential difficulty here is that if Fi is dual to Te and reinforces Te, might Fi also be conducive to "performing goal-oriented activities and creating order in one's surroundings"?

I don't think so. If we were to somehow put you in a Fi state of mind, you would be interested in understanding people and feelings, but you wouldn't feel like doing work (unless it's people-related). (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

Here's what I had in my notes for Te: "Parsibility. Logic-based form; ability to work with sections of music; the logic that makes one moment or section make sense after another; clear understanding of what delineates aspects of form, such as cadences, etc.; strategic approach to music (e.g., witholding forces until a special moment)" (On reflection, my own version has some Ni in there, possibly.) Anyhow, of all the ones you have, I think your Te is the best. It really conveys something subtle and important about Te.) --Jonathan 23:05, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

I don't quite get your description here. A perfect example of a Te state is, in my opinion, the first 13 seconds of the Joe Satriani song. Here we have a clear, unchanging beat and a total focus on an unambiguous chord change and the movement required to make the chord change happen. Very functional, no expression. This makes the listener want to go do something steady, rational, and productive. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

I think we're dealing with the difficulty of expressing in words. I understand what you're saying, and I think your description for Te is pretty much right on the mark, or at least among the best you have here. My description was, again, focusing on the specific things in music that might convey that effect, but it's talking in terms that most people don't use. Anyhow, here's a great example of how difficult this stuff is to describe: You said "no expression." See, I think a lot of people would take issue with that. There's an energy there; they're obviously very into it; it sounds very expressive to me (not in an Fe way, though). This is one of the difficult things about coming up with Te examples: One thinks that they should perhaps be lacking expression, but they never are; they're just as expressive, but they're expressing something different.

Te - related classical music

What do you think of these as possible Te-related examples?: --Jonathan 10:32, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

1. Haydn, last movement of the Cello concerto in C major

Possibly. Parts of the celloist's solos seem to convey some ethics, but the background I think is mostly Te. It's hard for me to "feel" this music as well as I do modern music. --Admin 14:39, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

1. Handel, any of the fast movements from the Royal Fireworks music or Water music (need link)
2. Mendelssohn, Octet, last movement (need link)
3. Beethoven, opening measures of the 1st or 2nd piano concerti

I can see what you're suggesting in the first 1:50 of the 1st concerto. Movement is purposeful and predictable and dominated by chord changes rather than melodic lines, and the rhythm is uniform, steady, and sufficiently lively. When the melody starts in, the mood and emphasis definitely shifts (temporarily). --Admin 14:31, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Si : a physically relaxed and comfortable state free of any grating irritants / Se : a physically mobilized state; the desire to make strong, bold, and powerful movements

I like your description of the Grieg piece along the lines of Si. But the S definitions are going to have this problem: As we know, Si types can sometimes be volatile, and Se types may sometimes be peaceful (to think otherwise is one of those biases of Socionics). Similarly, in classical music, you're going to have a mixture of very perky, fast, dramatic music, and also very slow, relaxing music, by the same composer, and in the same piece. One can suggest that the composer switches modes...goes from Si in the slow movement to Se in the fast movement. But I've come to believe that the typology-related aspect of music is more consistent than that...that the information aspects must be defined in a way that reflects the different potential moods inherent in each type.

When Si types are volatile, they have switched their focus to other IM elements, and when Se types are tranquil and unmobilized, they are in a non-Se state. In my opinion, this is the only way to treat the IM elements as specific, concrete properties and do justice to Model A, which suggests that all types make use of all functions. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

I agree with you that the functions involved may shift in the course of a piece of music. I think we're still coming from different perspectives regarding the amount of variation that could still exist within being Si or Se (or any other information aspect). Perhaps with examples and more discussion we'll both get a better appreciation of each point of view. :) --Jonathan 10:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Another issue: SLI people seem to me a bit more "gritty" than this description of Si would imply. I would suspect perhaps that SLI music could therefore be almost the opposite of what you say here...maybe even dissonant? --Jonathan 23:05, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

I would avoid talking in terms of "SLI music," because then we would have to say that any type can produce SLI music, and that wouldn't make sense at all. SLIs can produce music that conveys any state -- like any type can -- but I would expect Si and Te to dominate.

Okay, but following the same reasoning, wouldn't you agree that a person can write music with Si interacting with Te, or with Si interacting with Fe...or Si+ and Si- for the people who like that notation. --Jonathan 10:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Si doesn't seem to allow for any more than a small bit of dissonance that is quickly resolved, because dissonance creates inner tension and discomfort (anticipation, unsettledness, anxiety) which are foreign to Si. The Grieg example is perfect, I think. This isn't to say that Si types can't produce dissonant music -- I'm just saying that the result would be some other state of mind than Si. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

In some musical styles, mild but unresolved dissonance may not create the degree of unsettledness that would usually be expected. But getting back to Socionics here, maybe my conception of Si isn't correct, or something's wrong. It always seemed to me that the Si state of mind isn't just about being relaxed and comfortable; it's also about focusing concretely in the moment on specific personal actions (I thought). It seems that maybe for SEI we tend to think of someone sitting down on the couch eating potato chips, but for SLI, we think more of the kind of person who actually likes to fix cars, paint walls, set up machines, and do all other sorts of stuff that most other people would find totally boring. Maybe that's a misconception of mine (?). So, anyhow, it seems that this more "objective" Si/Te state of mind might be more compatible with a dissonant style, as long as the dissonance isn't used to create the associated states that you mentioned (?). --Jonathan 10:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Ni : a dreamy, mysterious, or ethereal state of inner discovery and searching

(Also a good description of some of Rachmaninoff's music. Writing good definitions here is so hard; I wonder if content-based definitions can ever work.) Here we have the interesting phenomenon that rather than conflicting, Si and Ni as described go hand in hand. That is, there's much music that's physically relaxed, and comfortable, and also dreamy. If one emphasizes the "searching" quality of Ni and the complacency, agitation-free nature of Si, then one may see more the expected contradiction.

I can see that, and I'm trying to find the answer. In my opinion, this relaxed, flowing music can be roughly divided into two halves -- one half brings melodic resolution and gratification "right now" and lacks a sense of anticipation or memory of the past (e.g. the joy of nature in Grieg's "Morning"), while the other half is somehow airier, more distant, or troubled and tends to make one reflect upon the past or the future (e.g. the wistfulness of "Romeo and Juliet"). What techniques exactly are used to do this needs to be discussed. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

Anyhow, IEI would possible seem to be the most dreamy. Would Ni with Te perhaps be a little different?

Here's an example (from Rock, sorry :-) of an Ni spirit with more of a Te focus. Note that the melody is somehow less "emotional" and more "functional," maybe because there is more of a sense of repeating logical patterns in the melody, which is dictated by the chord structure rather than a need for emotional expression.

Also, a comment on this same excerpt. Note the dominant chord change -- C major to B minor and back. Yes the basis for the scale is really E minor and not C or B (sorry, I lack musical terminology). This creates an underlying tension that contributes strongly to the Ni mood. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

Here's my version from my notes: "Imaginative control of the moment; the moment as imagined, controlled by the mind; may involve melodic potency, symbolism, timing, melodic economy, encapsulation of ideas into a simplified melody or form that says it all, symbolic or dramatic potential of an entire piece, potency of the timing of events to form a structure or drama, imaginative control of a drama or storyline. (Note: This can have a highly imaginary, escapist, fantasy-land quality, especially when mixed with Ti and in the absence of strong Te or Fe. In other circumstances, it can be much more focused and life-relevant.)" --Jonathan 23:05, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Ne : a sense of unexpectedness and openness to whatever might come next

Not bad, but I think that (with the possible exception of "unexpectedness") pretty well describes acc-Ne, acc-Ni, acc-Se, and acc-Si.

I agree. I'm talking about the listener's state -- "expecting the unexpected." I've added an example of Ne music to the sample page that has lots of abrupt transitions between musically autonomous sections that seem to be randomly connected. (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

The composers Filatova thinks were Ne are Prokofief and Mozart. Although Prokofief's music always has some intentional surprises, there is a decided sense I get from listening to these composers that they always are very confident of the direction they're going...which, by the way, is the impression I get from anyone who seems acc-Ne to me. Indeed, even on a theoretical level, Ne types should be so well acquainted with the possibilities that they're not being constantly thrown off guard.

Or they don't recognize that they're being thrown off guard because it seems natural to them! :) (Admin 03:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

In contrast, music that really seems to be flirting with constant unexpectedness I tend to think of as a particular expression of Ni...that is, the "victim" mentality.

Here's what I had in my notes for Ne: "Continuous melodic invention; springing forth of new ideas; brilliance in possibilities; continuous unfolding, impressing with the wealth of material" (A very different interpretation, obviously.) --Jonathan 23:05, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

I think your definition here might be a little too lofty. I think a Ne tendency is to basically say, "Look! We can have this, and this, and this, and this -- and all in one song!" or "Look what can be done with just this one concept!"

Our descriptions aren't necessarily that different. Let's remember exactly what mine were describing -- the state of mind induced by the music in the listener and experienced by the composer/artist. Your descriptions are about the music rather than the end state of mind. (Admin 01:02, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

Specific musical techniques used to create convey different states

"The specific techniques used to convey the states above differ from genre to genre, but a familiarity with different genres reveals that the techniques are similar from genre to genre."

This is a true statement, but the bullet points you have now are clearly more applicable to pop/rock/jazz music than classical. Fe is certainly often heavily represented in classical music, but not through high wailing sounds and the similar techniques, which are basically jazz techniques that were later incorporated into other forms of popular music.

Similarly, a heavy, percussive beat isn't typically found in classical music, whereas Wagner and possible Liszt probably expressed Se a lot in their music.

The characterization of Ni as emphasized by reverberation sounds, etc., comes from "New Age" sorts of music, and are also common in some instrumental forms of various kinds of popular music. The classical equivalent is minimalism. Sometimes classical music uses low pedal points, or repetitions to create a hypnotic effect. However, overall I think the characterization of the Ni psychic state is possibly too narrow here. A lot of classical music takes on a certain narrative, story-like quality that I also associate with Ni for example. It's hard to come up with a definition that includes the full breadth of moods that might be Ni. --Jonathan 13:24, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

I agree with your point, and I don't feel as well versed in classical music as in rock and modern music (it's like learning to recognize the same elements in a different cultural setting), so any musical techniques and especially examples you can think of would be great. I'll listen to your recommended selections as soon as I get the chance (if you found recordings of them on google video, that would help speed things up). --Admin 14:15, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Making sense of classical music

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has difficulty getting into a lot of classical music to the point where I would experience what was intended by the composer. Part of this is because classical music today plays a different role from what it once did. Once upon a time it was popular music that was present -- as I imagine -- at all sorts of formal and informal social events, but now it is played mainly in concert halls which are surrounded by an aura of tradition and convention, conveying a certain spirit that may have nothing in common with the music being played. Maybe I'm thinking more of the symphonic genre, which mostly puts me to sleep because of its sense of orderliness and convention. I realize there are other genres like trios and quartets that are more individualistic, or very expressive solo music as well. That stuff is a bit easier for me to get into. (Admin 14:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

I agree with you, which is why I'm picking my own examples among those that are still used, today, in those kind of events (also in movies etc) rather than those that are played in concert halls for the people who can appreciate its "technical" merits. Expat 03:30, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, exposure and familiarity has a lot to do with how sensitive one is to the expression. I once met someone from India who was brought up on traditional Indian music. When he heard Western classical music, it sounded "pretty" to him, but he couldn't pick out the emotions at all. Maybe I'll be able to find some examples that you'll find interesting. You've introduced me to some great instrumental stuff in the Pop/rock vein that I never knew existed. --Jonathan 07:40, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Se: heavy, percussive beat; strong "power chords" (in rock music);

Is this perhaps a too obvious example of Ni-Se? Expat 03:18, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Hypothesis on EJ versus EP emphasis

I've noticed that some extraverted (active, outwardly focused) music has a more steady rhythm from start to finish, while other music has a sort of pulsing quality, with periods of intense activity followed by moments of calm where the initial rhythm disappears.

Likewise, some extraverts (Te and Fe types) seem to maintain their primary state for hours on end with little deviation, while others (Se and Ne types) tend to need to relax and turn off more often. How related are these two observations? --Admin 05:20, 7 July 2007 (CDT)